Monday, November 21, 2011

Question for November 28: Pope and Irwin (pages 2598-2607)

Alexander Pope believed that each person has a "ruling passion . . . , a single irresistible desire" (Norton 2597).  In his "Epistle 2. To a Lady," he argues that although men may have many different ruling passions, only two are found in women:  "The love of pleasure, and the love of sway [or power]" (line 210).  Anne Ingram, Viscountess Irwin wrote "An Epistle to Mr. Pope" in response to Pope's poem.  In it, she argues that both men and women desire power, but women have been limited by society's customs, particularly as regards education.  Which view of women seems more realistic to you, Pope's or Irwin's?  Find lines in either poem which support or illustrate your view.

(Note:  You will find the second paragraph on page 2597 helpful in understanding Pope's poem.  Lines 1-198 are "a portrait gallery of ladies that illustrates their inconsistency and volatility."  This is the most difficult part of the poem, and you do not have to understand all of it.  Lines 199-248 are on the subject of ruling passions.  Finally, lines 249-92 describe Pope's ideal of womankind.)

11 comments:

  1. Right off the bat let me say I find Irwin's view of woman much more realistic than Pope's. Pope seems to think women have nothing to offer except in private. By this he implies women use sex to get what they want: "But grant in public men sometimes are shown, A woman's seen in private life alone: Our bolder talents in full light displayed; Your virtues open fairest in the shade" Pope goes on to say woman crave power(sway) to retain pleasure, "They seek the second not to lose the first." And they use beauty to secure power, "Power all their end, but beauty all the means." This seems like an oversimplified and cynical view of women to me. I think Ingram gets women in her poem. Her point is that both sexes desire power. But men in 18th century culture have many more avenues to power than do women largely because women are uneducated. I guess you can say Ingram is asking, "what's a woman supposed to do?" She makes this point so well with her use of metaphors, "A female mind like a rude fallow lies." and "As well might we expect Peruvian ore We should possess, yet dig not for the store." I think Irwin's best arguement on behalf of women is contained in lines 89-120. Here she says it is no wonder Greece and Rome produced such virtuous women compared to Great Britain. Portia, Cornelia, Lucretia, Clelia and all Roman women were offered knowledge, philosophy and truth, the foundations of virtue.

    golfguy13

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  3. I agree with Anonymous that Irwin gets women in her poem. It is quite evident that Anne Ingram’s view of women matches the one society has for women, today. Although men such as Alexander Pope may still have a hard time facing reality, her point for the entire response is to prove that the same drive that men have to do whatever it is that they do, women have that same drive as well. This can be seen in lines 4-6 which reads “Nothing so like as male and female youth, nothing so like as man and woman old, their joys, their loves, their hates, if truly told.” Her point here is that anything a man can do, a woman can do. However Ingram makes the argument against Mr. Pope that it is not that women do not have a mind of their own, but perhaps they do not always use it. Ingram tells us in line 33 that the only difference one might seek in having power comes from their “education.” She displays her evidence in lines 67- 70 that women are left to use their beauty in substitute for their lack of education. In society today, having women head CEO’s of fortune 500 companies and being the most affective voices in politics forces one who reads both Mr. Pope and Irwin’s views, to disagree with Mr. Pope in his attitude that women are only submissive and that “most women have no characters at all.” Although we have yet to see a woman President, the bridge of equality among man and woman is still being built upon; but it is evident that the equality of power is there.

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  4. I agree with Icy_Me and Anonymous, as I’m sure most modern people would. Alexander Pope’s view of women is very narrow-minded. From the very beginning of the poem he states: “Nothing so true as what you once let fall, ‘Most women have no characters at all.’ Matter too soft a lasting mark to bear, and best distinguished by black, brown, or fair.” Immediately, this puts a negative thought in my head about the opinion of the writer. He believes that the best way to identify a woman is by her appearance, which is not the typical opinion of an educated, good natured man—or woman for that matter. After he undermines women for the rest of the poem, he finally gives his opinion on men: they are much more complex. If he believed that men had the same simple desires as men, as a few members of society do, it would be less offensive. After reading Anne Ingram’s response to his poem, she appears much more refined. Not only does she seem to understand women, as the two precious posters mentioned, but she also seems to understand men as well. She does not disagree with him in that women love power, which I believe shows that her creative motive is not to simply put his work down. She elaborates, however, on how men desire power just as much as women: “In either sex the appetite’s the same, For love of power is still the love of fame.” Most of our lives are driven by ambition and want of power, regardless of sex. This is why, to me, Ingram’s poem is more logical.

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  5. Again, I would have to agree with all previous posters in that I believe Irwin’s view of women seems more realistic and accurate than Pope’s does. He starts by being very harsh on women and depicts the traits of bad women, or women who are not ideal for him. These traits include wit, excessive self-love, and indecisiveness. He then gives examples of women who have these traits such as Flavia “Flavia’s a wit, has too much sense to pray; to toast our wants and wishes, it he way” (Line 87-88). Next is Atossa who is always mad and uses violent passion “No passion gratified except her rage” (Line 126), and he also uses Chloe, who seems to have a lack for generosity and love. All of these women are then generalized, and looked upon by all women and emphasizing how they have two qualities, those who want power, and those who want pleasure. I agree with 901 when they say how Pope really does undermine all women by generalizing them together. By the end of the poem it seems as though what Pope seems to be ideal is anything but it. He likes qualities such as “reserve with frankness, art with truth allied, courage with softness, modesty with pride” (Line 277-278). With all those mixed it produces the ideal and perfect women. Anne Ingram steps in and writes about how Pope draws in no consideration that women are different from men, as Icy ME says that “anything men can do women can do.” I like how Ingram uses the lack of education between men and women, which requires an unequal playing field, “In education all the difference lies; women, if taught, would be as bold and wise as haughty men, improved by art and rules” (Lines 35-36). Next, Ingram also blames society being too forced on female lure. Overall, I feel Ingram was more realistic with her view on women than Pope was.

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  6. I definitely think that Irwin’s poem has the more realistic portrayal of women. She is not afraid to say that yes woman want to acquire power, but so do men. The only difference being that men can attain power through their education, and get jobs to make money, women however are not allowed to be educated like men. Like golfguy13 says, no wonder there were so many great women from the ancient Roman and Greek societies, it was because they were educated and therefore able to gain what they wanted through their brains, not their bodies. Therefore, the only way they are able to get this power is through sex. She writes, “In either sex the appetites the same, / For love of power is the love of fame ” ( 21-22). This idea of men and women and men being the same is a very different view from Pope who thought that men only desired one thing, pleasure or power, but woman desired both. I agree with lola4 and 901, when they say that Pope is generalizing women as a group. He does use very specific examples from women in the past and women from modern day, however they are very extreme situations. He writes, “All eyes may see from what the change arose, / All eyes may see-a pimple on her nose” (line 35-36). The “change” Pope writes about is this calm and charming demeanor of Cecilia changes in an instant to raging and angry all because of a pimple on her nose. He is implying the vain natures of woman, and how ridiculous her reaction was. He also writes about Calypso and how she keeps Oedipus on her island for 7 years so he cannot go home to Ithaca. This story is actually a myth yet he uses it and gives this characteristic to all women. I think that he has been hanging around with the wrong woman like Irwin states in her poem, and therefore he has attributed these characteristics to all women.

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  8. Quite remarkably, I see very valid points in both of the author's points. Coinciding with what icy_ME, 901, and Lola4 said, I do more strongly believe that women were limited by society rather than them just not striving for success and power. As icy_ME quoted lines 4-6, these lines best represent her belief that men and women are the same even when it comes to similar interests. Ingram also states, "In education all the difference lies; Women, if taught, would be as bold and wise As haughty as man, improved by art and rules" (33-35). Her statement portrays her idea that women would be equal in society if they were taught to learn new advances and art. The problem is not that women have no drive to be powerful, but simply because they are not allowed to aspire in society at that time. Ingram also uses a simile of soil to portray womens's minds not ever being seeded but occasional weeds sprout. If having the chance to be harvested and well kept, women would sprout endless possibilities. Her response to Pope is quite appropriate and is a good rebuttle to his demeaning and very narrow minded poem. Pope's view of women is still carried out by men today unfortunately.

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  10. In the “Epistle 2: To a Lady”, Alexander Pope claims that women have no character at all. “Most women have no characters at all” (line 2). He also states that women are best to be categorized by their appearance, and therefore the only thing a woman has going for her is her beauty. I agree with Anonymous, Icy_Me, and 901 when they all state that Alexander Pope has a very narrow-minded view of women. Pope shows set qualities of an ideal woman, and his illustrations depict the traits of bad women. He also argues that although men may have many different ruling passions, only two are found in women: "The love of pleasure and the love of sway” (line 210). The women that ate depicted in Pope’s Epistle only possess qualities of pleasure and power. The author’s limited view of women contradicts itself within this poem, and his illustrations of women throughout the poem are too confusing to fit into his two categories. I believe that Anne Ingram’s view of women is more realistic than Alexander Pope’s view of women. Ingram argues that both women and men long to have power. She states that women have been limited by society’s customs, especially their education. “In education all the difference lies; Women, if taught, would be as bold and wise, as haughty man, improved by art and rules” (lines 33-35). Ingram also says that Pope does not think about how women are socialized differently than men. She says that women do have minds.

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  11. In the “Epistle 2: To a Lady,” I believe that both Pope and Irwin are both correct in their assumptions about the passions of men and women. Pope claims that both men and women desire power: “In either sex the appetites the same, / For love of power is the love of fame ” ( 21-22). We are all human beings that experience the need for purpose and attention: “Nothing so like as male and female youth, nothing so like as man and woman old, their joys, their loves, their hates, if truly told.” By today’s standards, this is true. Pope claims that women; however, find that power through their sexuality: "Power all their end, but beauty all the means." This is where Irwin comes in. She states in lines 67-70 that women are limited by lack of education, and this hinders them. "In education all the difference lies; Women, if taught, would be as bold and wise As haughty as man, improved by art and rules" (33-35). The reader must remember though that at the time this poem was written, women didn’t have a real place in society other than to put up with their spouses. They did not share the freedom and natural power with the women of today. The only real power they had was sex, that power still holds very true to this day. Women of that time and age helds little public power, "But grant in public men sometimes are shown, A woman's seen in private life alone: Our bolder talents in full light displayed; Your virtues open fairest in the shade" Pope is suggesting that power can be wielded from the bedroom. This is not entirely untrue, but by today’s standards I would have to agree with Anonymous and the other bloggers that Irwin holds the best light to the situation of women in society.

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