Friday, November 18, 2011
Question for November 21: Swift and Montagu
After reading Jonathan Swift's poem, "The Lady's Dressing Room" (pages 2590-93), and Lady Mary Wortley Montagu's response in "The Reasons That Induced Dr. Swift to Write a Poem Called the Lady's Dressing Room" (pages 2593-95), consider the following questions: What seem to be Swift's purpose and main idea in his poem? How about Lady Montagu's purpose and main idea in her poem? How does Montagu imitate the form and content of Swift's poem? Which poem do you prefer, and why?
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First I would like to say that I enjoyed both poems equally. Swift’s poem was funny and men way back when were just as upset over having to wait on woman as men are today. He opens the poem talking about how much time it take for Celia to get ready—five hours. Swift makes a laundry list of every gross thing about Celia. He even includes the contents of her chamber pot. There is a dual nature to Celia. In public she is beautiful, but in her chamber she leaves behind all the dirt and filth and all the implements that make her beautiful. She was not born this way; her beauty takes work. I wonder if Swift wrote this about a real woman he knew.
ReplyDeleteLady Montagu must have been offended when she first read the poem as I am sure most women were. Beauty does take work, but it is not as offensive as Swift put it. In Swift’s poems last lines, he even equates women to tulips sprung from dung. It does not get more offensive than this. So, Lady Montagu, wrote a poem of her own. She came up with a way to win for women who were offended. She lists reasons why this man would have wrote such a poem…and in that attacks Swift as well. The man went to the woman looking for “love” or sex because she was a prostitute, and he cannot perform.
The Reverend Lover with surprize
Peeps in her Bubbys, and her Eyes,
And kisses both, and trys--and trys.
The Evening in this Hellish Play,
Beside his Guineas thrown away,
Provok'd the Preist to that degree
he swore, the Fault is not in me. (63-69).
Not able to accept that the fault of him being able to not perform sexually, he begins to take it out on the prostitute.
I have to say I like Lady Montagu’s comeback to Swift’s poem. She beat him at his own game—score one for the women. And she did it in a witty and educated manner.
I was shocked when I read Swifts, “The Lady’s Dressing Room.” I found his poem funny but also rather offensive. I agree with Hiro Protagonist’s point of it being a mockery of how long it takes for a woman to get ready which is also a pun in modern times. Swift’s purpose in writing this poem is to show that women care too much about outward experience and vanity. Swift was a Christian so he thought pride and vanity were sins. By women’s caring about makeup and how they look, they are sinning. I think Swift wanted people to feel the same way about makeup as he did so he wrote about how women put on makeup in a vile way. Swift makes makeup sound dirty by saying things like “The various combs for various uses, Filled up with dirt so closely fixed, No brush could force a way betwixt; A paste of composition rare, Sweat, dandruff, powder, lead and hair,” (lines 20-24). I am also wondering about, like Hiro Protagonist said, maybe Swift wrote this poem based on a woman he knew. Lady Montagu’s reasons for writing her poem are different from Swift’s due to the fact that she is only attacking Swift. She attacks every aspect of him including his apparel by saying “His golden snuff box in his hand, With care his diamond ring displays,” (lines 2-3). Montagu is saying here if Swift is such a good Christian, he should not own such expensive possessions. This is similar to Swift’s poem in the context of Montagu’s attacking of Swift’s appearance juts like how Swift attacks women’s appearance. Also Montagu attacks Swift’s appearance by mocking his toupee. I enjoyed Swift’s poem more however due to his comedy. I do think Montagu’s poem was very funny and Swift’s poem, though it is very harsh, he makes his point with over exaggeration and I enjoyed that.
ReplyDeleteFeathery Friend
ReplyDeleteJust as Hiro and SLY said, I believe that Jonathan Swift’s poem was to show how women work so hard to paint on their faces and spend five hours getting ready to create an allure for men but they really are disgusting themselves. To elaborate on Hiro’s description: the barrator goes walking through her room Strephon sees jars of spit, oily cloths, grimy towels, jars of spit, cosmetics strewn about, and snot encrusted handkerchiefs, “Nor be the handkerchiefs forgot/ All varnished o'er with snuff and snot.” (line 50) He realizes that Celia is not a goddess just because she looks so beautiful and put together in public; but is actually disgusting and unsanitary in private. He shouts “Oh! Celia, Celia, Celia shits!” as if men back then thought women were of such another kind that they did not do such things.
Lady Mary Wortley Montagu was angered by the poem and responded with her own. Argues that Swift wrote "The Lady's Dressing Room” Montague says the reason Swift wrote the poem is because he paid a prostitute for intercourse and his male parts would not respond and when he asks for his money back and she denies him and he storms out. I thought Montagu fought very dirty with her poetic warfare against swift even though he did use some very demeaning connotations against women. The poem was not directed at Montagu herself so I thought it was below the belt to personally attack him and his appearance back. My favorite was definitely Swift’s poem because it was mostly funny and only slightly offensive. But Montague’s poem was not as funny and a little more than I would have thought a lady would have written back then.
I loved both Swifts and Lady Montagu’s poems. I think that they both were comical, and insightful into the writers themselves. Hiro Protaganist, and SomeoneLikeYou, both said that Swifts poem was making fun of women for taking so long to get ready, but I also think there is a deeper meaning to the poem. While Swift does make fun of all of the different items women use to get ready, as well as how long it takes for them to get ready, he is also writing to expose the unseen faces of women. He goes into intense detail about the women Cecilia and how whilst she is undressing, and getting ready for bed, you see how she truly is, dirty, smelly, and disgusting. He writes, “But swears how damnably the men lie, in calling Celia sweet and cleanly”. (lines 17-18). He goes far as to say that men are lying when talking about this lady. Overall I think his point is to tell men to not be tricked by women and their beautiful covers, but to tell them women are truly gross and nasty people. Montagu in response writes her poem with the same rhyme scheme, and the same way of listing off points as Swift does. Her poems point is to blame the man for spreading these rumors that women are disgusting by saying that the man was having a hard time in bed, and so he blamed it on the woman betty saying she was so disgusting that he could not even have a good time with her in bed. Ultimately, though, Montagus poem was my favorite! She sticks up for women and has Girl Power!
ReplyDeleteIn Jonathan Swift’s poem, “The Lady’s Dressing Room,” he presents an overall tone of a satire toward women as he grabs the opportunity to venture through the dressing room of Celia’s. I agree with Hiro when he says that after visiting Cilia’s dressing room or “chamber” he realizes there is two sides to her, one being the glorified image she gives to the public, and the other side of her damages the perfections she presents, which make her look messy and unattractive. I feel that this is the main idea of the poem , that women share a lot of secretes as they are behind closed doors with no men watching, and by disguising themselves with makeup they are not showing the men who they really are. Swift explains when wondering through her dressing room he smells her dirty towels and describes them as “begummed, bemattered, and beslimed, with dirt, and sweat, and earwax grimed” (45-46). Next, he describes his stockings as “stained with the marks of stinking toes” (52). Not only does he vividly describe her towels and stockings, but he also mentions her handkerchief, nightcaps, tweezers, and her chest. By encountering these objects, it essentially resists him away from her since he feels she is as gross as he is. Lady Montagu replies by stating how women go through a lot of effort and time to meet the ideal image of a female and to meet men’s expectations. Her main purpose for writing this poem is to attack on Swift’s points made in his poem, which mocks on the image of women. She first does this by stating he wrote it after experiencing sexual disappointment with a prostitute. My favorite part is when she ends the poem with “You’ll furnish paper when I shite” (89). Just like Swift, she brings irony and humor into the poem, which makes it enjoyable to read. Overall, I would have to agree with feathery friend when they say that I prefer Swift’s poem to Montagu just because I thought it was less offensive and more humorous.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed the banter between these two poems. I was very shocked to see a woman lash back at a man in writing! This idea seems a lot more modern to me than something that would happen in those times. Personally, though, I enjoyed reading “The Lady’s Dressing Room” by Jonathan Swift more. It was lighter, and easier to follow along. It doesn’t seem to have as much malice behind it as Lady Mary Wortley Montagu’s poem. However, I enjoyed the idea of her poem more. She was countering an idea that she was not fond of—that women are disgusting and only put on a show to woo men. In her eyes, Swift was simply poking fun at women for no apparent reason in the eyes of Montagu. Therefore she created a reason for him: a woman angered him so he immaturely tried to embarrass her in writing. After reading SomeoneLikeYou’s post, Swift’s Christianity could definitely be a motive in his writing. I wouldn’t have thought of this previously, but now I can see that and agree. The most crucial part in connecting the poems falls at the end of Montagu’s poem: “’I’ll be revenged, you sauce quean’ (Replies the disappointed Dean), ‘I’ll so describe your dressing room The very Irish shall not come.’” I love that she so blatantly publicized her motive in her poem, attempting to embarrass Swift, personally, as he did women. Both poems are written in the same style: long paragraphs with end rhyme.
ReplyDeleteRight off the bat my first thought is that this poem was a bit too over exaggerating. The Lady’s Dressing Room has a tone of repulsiveness and disgust. The tone is shown throughout the whole poem in each line with diction such as: dirty, smock, sweat, dandruff, sour, snot, etc. The tone is also shown when Swift says, “ But oh! It turned poor Strephon’s bowels…”(2591 line 43). The main purpose or idea of this poem is that no girl is a “goddess” or perfect. They hide their faults behind their makeup and all other grooming they do to get ready. His advice to other men is to never look into a girl’s dressing room because once they see the illusion of a girl being perfect will disappear, and one will never look at a girl the same. “I pity wretched Strephon, blind to all the charms of womankind”(2593 lines 129-130) backs this up in saying he will never see a beautiful woman again, but see her as foul and nasty. Lady Mary Wortley Montagu did not like “The Lady’s Dressing Room” by Jonathan Swift. She thought it was really degrading and offensive to women. Lady Mary writes a poem her poem in response to suggest that Swift only wrote his poem out of spite after an unsatisfying sexual experience with a prostitute as she says, “ For twice two pound you enter here…His gold she takes…”(2594 lines 18-25). Lady Mary not only makes this accusation but also mocks Swift with it by writing it in same style. She uses the same rhyme scheme AABBCC, etc. Also, it kind of has the same rhythm when you read it with the same stressed and unstressed syllables. I prefer Lady Mary’s poem because Jonathan Swift’s poem suggest he is no longer attracted to women, and that’s not cool. That wouldn’t be any fun at all if no women were attractive. He is too over dramatic.
ReplyDelete-dixonWMP111
As everyone else has said this poem is a little exaggerated. I believe that while he puts it in a cynical way this is something we in this day can laugh at. To this day women take way to long to get ready and seem to put on very dramatic makeup to look almost like day and night when they have it on or off. This is a satire of this lady and what filled her dressing room. As going through her stuff he seems to think of every little thing to be some foreign concoction used to hide her ugliness. For example he says, "Here gallipots and vials placed, some filled with washes some filled with paste, some with pomatum, paints, and slops, and ointments good for scabby chops" (2591). He puts these things into a way of disgust more of then a mockery. He paints a picture of the lady to make her seemingly gruesome looking. I agree with someonelikeyou with their statement, "Swift’s purpose in writing this poem is to show that women care too much about outward experience and vanity. Swift was a Christian so he thought pride and vanity were sins. By women’s caring about makeup and how they look, they are sinning." Lady Montagu writes back to Swift to show her feelings towards his poem. During her poem she writes about his falsely acclaimed feelings towards women and adds harsh things about men in the mix. I believe that Montagu's poem is more of a jab to men then Swift's poem about a Lady. I think swift is so exaggerated it is funny. It should be something that women laugh at themselves about because frankly most women do do this. Montagu took Swift's poem too harshly.
ReplyDeleteIt is not uncommon to hear about an argument between a man and a woman. It's natural. But to see one in writing is another story. Lady Montagu was clearly offended by Jonathan Swift's poem, "The Lady's Dressing Room". In his poem, he over exaggerates almost every detail of a woman in a negative connotation. He uses words like; whelp, slops, scabby, stinking, reeking, etc. Swift is referring the the natural appearance of a woman. He is saying that underneath the perfect looking faces and the perfectly done hair, there is essentially, a pile of dung left. In the first line of the poem on page 2590 Swift says, "Five hours (and who can do it less in?) By haughty Celia spent in dressing...". Swift is saying that women take so long in the dressing room and that they are covering all the hideous physical characteristics that they possess. Lady Montagu did not take this well. I agree with Crayola in that her poem was more of a jab at men. She did speak more of women in a positive connotation and copied the writing style of Swift and is constantly referring to things that he wrote in his poem. On the last two lines of Lady Montagu's poem, she writes, "I'm glad you'll write, You'll furnish paper when I shite" which is referring to the part in Swift's poem where he exclaims,"Celia shits!", and "rise from a pile of dung". Overall, I do find Jonathan Swift's poem to be more humerous and less harmful, and Lady Mary Montagu's poem was more offensive and a more direct attempt at offending others. In particular, Jonathan Swift.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed both of these poems, but out of the two I seem to enjoy “The Lady’s Dressing Room”, by Jonathan Swift more. I agree with 901 in that it is easier to follow and lighter. Montagu seems to be just focusing on attacking Swift and this focus on revenge made hers less clever and humorous in my eyes. It is like Swift told a really funny joke at her expense and she retaliated with a comeback, but it was not good enough to combat the original joke. I also think it is possible that Swift has some underlying meaning to his poem. Lines 83-86 states “As from within Pandora’s box,/ When Epimetheus opened the locks,/ A sudden universal crew/ Of Human evils upward flew.” This hints that he is not just talking about the exterior appearance of women but also what is inside. The story of the poem is a man getting to see behind the scenes of a woman’s life, and he gets to see how bad it is back there. So even if a woman looks beautiful on the outside, behind that beauty might lay things that are extremely nasty and evil. Another thing I find humorous is that it seems Strephon, like all men, is trying to turn a blind eye to all these awful things and just focus on her beauty and charm, he ask “Should I the queen of love refuse because she rose from stinking ooze?”(lines 130-133) Overall both of these poems are humorous and witty, and they represent a true battle of the sexes.
ReplyDelete- hawk
I agree with Watts Davidson in that there is more to Swift's poem than to just complain about how much time women consume by just getting ready. I do believe that Swift is also saying to look deeper into the woman, and if you look deep enough, she's disgusting. I also think that at the end he is admitting that women put on a front, but he is happy for it. I think in the end he is saying that he appreciates all the time it takes to get Celia ready because he's seen her without make up, perfume, or clean clothes, and without all of that, she is disgusting."Such gaudy tulips raised from dung." Basically saying that she is dung before getting ready, then she transforms into a tulip to fool the men's eyes. So he likes the make-up, perfume, and clean clothes. In "The Dressing Room," He makes Strephon seem like the one who is in the wrong or naive. In reality, Strephon is looking past the flaws of the woman and searches for goodness and charm on the inside. Montage's response was much better in my opinion. It copied the rhythm of Swift's poem. As it answers to Swift's "Dressing Room," it mocks it. It is saying that men do the same thing. That men will dress themselves up to impress a women. Probably the same women that they were calling disgusting.
ReplyDeletePeacock1
Both poems are hilarious and, as previously stated by Watts Davidson, appear to have meanings deeper than the disgusting lengths women take to look pretty or the retelling of an unsuccessful sexual encounter between a clergyman and a prostitute. My favorite part of Swift's poem is the section near the end that begins, "But Vengance, goddess never sleeping, Soon punished Strephon for his peeping." By snooping too deeply in Celia's private business, Strephon ruined his ability to believe in the beauty of any woman. It reminds me of what people say about hot dogs, "if you like them, don't read the list of ingredients." Lola 4 and Hero point out that Swift is exposing the other side of Celia and I agree. Montague is also exposing what she believes is the false confidence of men. She does this cleverly in her lines, "The ox thinks he's for saddle fit." And, "The stutterer fancies his is speaking." The themes of these two poems are relevent todaty. Which only proves the more things change the more they stay the same.
ReplyDeletegolfguy13